About the episode
Kevin is joined by Ryan Sean Adams and David Hoffman of the Bankless podcast and newsletter to discuss the current state of decentralized finance, the role of layer one versus layer two protocols, and the future of banking.
About our guest

Bankless
Bankless is the ultimate guide to DeFi, NFTs, Ethereum, and Bitcoin, blending money and tech insight to help you level up your open finance game.
Topics covered
EPISODE LINKS
- Connect with Ryan Sean Adams: Twitter
- Connect with David Hoffman: Twitter
- The Ultimate Guide to Crypto Finance | Bankless
- Bud Light Owns a Nouns Ethereum NFT — And May Use It in Super Bowl Ad | Decrypt
- Nouns DAO with Punk 4156 | PROOF
- Hic Et Nunc, Tezos, and Clean NFTs Explained l Honey & Absinthe
- The History of NFTs & How They Got Started | Portion Blog
- Go Read This Story on the Real History of NFTs | The Verge
- Collect and Breed Furrever Friends | CryptoKitties
- 10 Predictions For Blockchain, Crypto Assets, DeFi, And NFTs For 2022 | Forbes
- The Decentralized Reserve Currency | Olympus DAO
- An Unbiased Global Financial System | MakerDAO
- Algorithmic, Autonomous Interest Rate Protocol | Compound
- Decentralized Trading Protocol | Uniswap
- Paris Hilton, Jimmy Fallon Show Off Bored Ape Yacht Club NFTs | Vulture
- 8,888 Pudgy Penguin NFTs | Pudgy Penguins
- Layer 2 Rollups | Ethereum.org
- Collective Ownership of Iconic and Historic NFTs | Fractional
- Square Debuts Fractional-Stock Trading | The Business Journals
- Ethereum Has a Gas Problem | Morning Brew
- Sick Of High Ethereum Gas Fees? Do This Instead | Alexandria
- Side Chain Scaling with Sandeep Nailwal, Co-Founder of Polygon | Modern Finance
- Optimism ‘Soft Launches’ Ethereum Throughput Solution With DeFi’s Synthetix | CoinDesk
- Reddit Rolls With Arbitrum to Scale Its Ethereum-Based Community Points System | CoinDesk
- The First Layer 2 for NFTS on Ethereum | Immutable X
- Why Coinbase’s Trading Debut Is a Cryptocurrency Coming-Out Party | The New York Times
- Cryptocurrency Exchange | Binance
- Alex Raises $5.8M to Bring DeFi to the Bitcoin Ecosystem | CoinDesk
- How Safe Is My Crypto Yield? with Zac Prince (CEO, BlockFi) and Matt Ballensweig (Genesis) | Modern Finance
- Opinion: To All Those Who Say Bitcoin Is the New Gold: You Haven’t Lived Long Enough | MarketWatch
- What is Wrapped Bitcoin (wBTC) and Why it’s So Important | Securities.io
- The Origins and Future of Aave, the Decentralized Finance Protocol to Lend and Borrow Crypto | Modern Finance
- Smart Contracts | Investopedia
- DeFi ‘Rug Pull’ Scams Pulled In $2.8B This Year: Chainalysis | CoinDesk
- Why India Wiped Out 86% Of Its Cash Overnight | BBC News
- Argentina on ‘Collision Course’ Towards Currency Devaluation | Financial Times
- Currencies Tumble as Markets Reprice Risk | EDC
- Billionaire Tax by Democrats Sets Ultra-Rich on the Hunt for Ways to Avoid It | Bloomberg
- What Is a Stablecoin? | Coinbase
- Powering the Innovation of Money | Terra
- President’s Working Group Report Calls for Stablecoin Regulation | Reuters
- Built to Fail: The Inherent Fragility of Algorithmic Stablecoins | Wake Forest Law Review
- Tether Freezes $160M of USDT Stablecoin on Ethereum Blockchain | CoinDesk
- Anchor Protocol
- Black Swan | Investopedia
- Examining The Lindy Effect and Bitcoin | Bitcoin Magazine
- Ether: The Triple Point Asset | Bankless
- CryptoFees.info
- MoneyPrinter.info
- Beginner’s Guide to Crypto Arbitrage – Is it Profitable? | Cryptowatch Guides
- Why Layer 2s Are the Future | Bankless
- Blazingly Fast, Low Cost, & Eco-Friendly | Avalanche
- The Solana Blockchain — Ethereum Killer or Piece of a Larger Puzzle? | Modern Finance
- Edan Yago: The Rise of Layer 2s Spells End for Altcoins | CoinDesk
- How to Stake ETH | Bankless
- Liquidity for Staked Assets | Lido
- Decentralised Ethereum Staking Protocol | Rocket Pool
- Can Crypto Go Green? | The New York Times
- How Tesla Owners Can Mine Cryptocurrency with Their Cars | The Hill
- Application-Specific Integrated Circuit (ASIC) Miner | Investopedia
- Chia – A New Cryptocurrency Launching Soon, Built by Bram Cohen, Founder of BitTorrent | Modern Finance
- Painted Cities by Nate Mohler | OpenSea
- CryptoPunks – The NFTs That Started It All. Their Origin Story and Future Plans | Modern Finance
- Tiny Turtle by Jem104 | OpenSea
- Mutant Ape Yacht Club | OpenSea
- SupDucks | OpenSea
- Forgotten Runes Wizards Cult
- The Coolest NFTs on the Blockchain! | Cool Cats
SHOW NOTES
- Why Kevin supports Bankless and values the work Ryan and David are doing to educate people in the crypto space. [00:39]
- Why it’s now appropriate to drink Bud Light in celebration of NFT culture. [02:34]
- The forensic (and imperfect) fun of digging into blockchain archaeology. [04:13]
- What’s the current state of DeFi? [07:15]
- The emerging benefits of “Boomer” DeFi. [09:25]
- Why NFTs have sparked the imagination of the mainstream in ways DeFi hasn’t yet, and how Team Bankless believes the intersection of the two will take place. [10:31]
- Will DeFi need to rely on centralized solutions to solve some of its problems (like exorbitant ETH gas fees) in the short term? [15:50]
- How traditional banks fail the consumer, and what Bankless thinks DeFi will be able to do better once certain growing pains are resolved. [17:08]
- Why Ryan and David resist the dogmatic side of their mission and still have traditional bank accounts — for the time being. [20:49]
- Where Bitcoin’s scaling strategy to usher in a bankless future is fundamentally flawed. [22:25]
- The importance of smart contracts and decentralizing finance from a systemic perspective. [25:32]
- Thoughts on centralized stablecoins. [29:56]
- The real superpower of crypto: options. [33:28]
- Thoughts on algorithmic stablecoins. [36:21]
- Ryan and David lay out the basic strategies behind their own portfolios concerning valuations, competing layers, and hedges. [38:23]
- How Ethereum became a victim of its own success. [51:13]
- Comparing the value of blockchains like Solana with Ethereum from a consumer vs. investor lens. [53:32]
- ETH: worth staking now? If so, where? What else can you do to make your ETH work for you? [1:00:14]
- Will Bitcoin be green 10 years from now? [1:03:03]
- Kevin’s history with mining crypto (and why he stopped). [1:04:21]
- NFT art and artists Ryan and David like. [1:05:31]
- Parting thoughts. [1:10:01]
PEOPLE MENTIONED
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